The Pros and Cons of Protest
I was pretty surprised how the comments on the last post took off. I’d thrown out the AGW canard to stir things up, granted, but you guys took off in a completely new direction.
Some interesting comments came up regarding protest. It seems everyone thinks protest is good, and that everyone has a right to do it, but some people think there should be a point to it.
Personally, I agree that people have a right to protest, even if at times it gets them thrown in jail (some protesters should be jailed). Not only do I agree that people have a right to protest and disagree with each other, so does everyone else on the blog, so we don’t have to debate that.
Is protest, in and of itself, a good thing? I’m sorry, but I can’t buy that. Protest can be something quite praiseworthy, but it can also be a self- indulgent annoyance. Its not a “use it or lose it” proposition, either. If we’ve got nothing to complain about we don’t have to complain on principle.
What’s the difference between the praiseworthy and the annoying?
I think that’s pretty clear. If you protest to send a message or effect change, and the message or the change is positive, the protest is praiseworthy. On the other hand, regardless of your personal opinions and values, if you fail to convey a positive message or effect positive change, your protest is a failure, and justifying it is a self-indulgent annoyance.
I know I wrote that myself, but I still think its pretty good. I can disagree with tree huggers, for example, but if they stage a sit-in to protest the logging of Clayquot Sound in the name of preserving Mother Gaia I can still respect their motivation and praise their committment. Preserving nature is a positive, and attracting publicity to send a message and raise awareness about preserving nature is a positive. Furthermore, both the action and the message are specific enough to be articulated concisely.
And so to the looming spectacle that is the Olympics. To paraphrase a few posters, I am not clear on what protests during the Olympics are intended to accomplish. I’m not clear what is being protested, why the Olympics are the best time to do it, what the alternative plans are, and how realistic those plans are.
No, I’m not a moron and no, I don’t live on the moon.
The simple concept of raising political awareness? That’s a poor excuse to protest. There are much better ways to get a message out without confusing and annoying people. Self-righteous preaching is a poor sales technique as far as I can see.
Protecting freedom of speech and assembly? We do that by protesting the Olympics? Do we do it consistently, or only for our pet causes? What, in that case, is the real goal? Protecting free speech or the pet cause? In other words, does the anti-Olympic protester who demonstrates to maintain free speech also contribute to Ezra Levant’s legal fund? Does he protest to allow anti-abortion picketers?
Are opposition and political protest awareness raising exercises all the time? If they don’t get the message out I’d argue that they aren’t, and that goes double if they send the wrong message.
Are they justified on the basis that they might, just might, impact how our city operates in the future, how the province addresses social issues, how our senior levels of government interpret our rights and freedoms in future events, or how the next Olympics is conducted? Its tough to concede that the smallest possibility of success justifies bad feeling and conflict. There are better ways to accomplish those goals.
Do we really know why this country’s forefathers fought and died? I know (or knew) a lot of WW2 vets, and I’ve heard lots of reasons for why they went to war. I’ve never heard them mention the DTES, but what do I know? I’d like to think they were fighting for fundamental rights like protest and freedom of assembly, but I’m not certain they’d be as tolerant as some may think. That’s not to say they were all racist rednecks (although they were, by and large, the old white men that get blamed for a lot of the bad in the world) – I just think they’d realize that buring the Olympics down isn’t going to help homelssness.
So, here’s the challenge: without personally attacking the intelligence of someone who fails to chear you on, can anyone explain what the anti-Olympic protests (any of them) hope to accomplish, and explain how these goals will be effectively accomplished?
(Hey, at over 140 comments it was time for a new post anyway). 
25 comments
Well i would rather talk about Real Estate, as i have a problem. I have found my dream home, and unless i act, i know it will be gone soon. here is the listing. MLS®: 272418
With a suite in the basement generating 1000-1200, I can get into the mortgage now and my payments are about the same as i pay rent.
So whats wrong with this picture? My wife is nagging me to “Just Do It”
PS be glad we don’t live in China, noone gets to protest there without prosecution…
Rob, what’s wrong with protesting as a simple way of conveying the message “we’re really pissed off”? I don’t know why WWII veterans would have to approve it, or why it should be necessary for protesters to have an alternative proposal. The right to protest is a feedback mechanism and I’d wager that it’s a pretty important one.
The Olympic protesters don’t have a positive message and it’s too late to effect positive change because the die is cast. But can you honestly expect them to put down their signs, go home, and dutifully pay this off in 30 years’ taxation? I consider this kind of protest necessary to hold everyone’s feet to the fire.
Many Franks:
Nobody says WW2 vets hve to approve protests. People use the sacrifices of earlier generations to justify the actions they take today, however, implying that “our forefathers fought and died to preserve my right to do such and such” – I’m just pointing out the weakness in that shibboleth.
Why should anyone care if someone is pissed off? Everybody gets pissed off about something. What’s wrong with complaining about it? For me its clear: if your complaining has little chance of accomplishing anything other than annoying people (regardless of whether they are your opponents or not) then the value of the complaint is outweighed by the annoyance it causes. You have a right to complain, but I have a right to peace and quiet, and enjoyment of my life. Those two rights can be in direct opposition, but both exist. I think we have to have some way of deciding which right takes precedence. Mindless protest with little prospect of accomplishing anything isn’t a right that is superior to other rights.
Olympic protesters may well have a positive message. I can certainly imagine a few. And I’m not certain it is too late to effect change.
And what’s more, I don’t expect anyone to simply shut up and pay their taxes like good little boys and girls.
I do expect someone who says they have a position on something to be able to articulate it without resorting to the old “assumption” tactic to deflect the question (as in “Oh, I guess you don’t believe in X or you think everyone should do Y”) – just answer the question: what are you mad about and what do you want changed?
I also expect people who say they’re committed to doing something about a particualr issue to be able to articulate what it is they’re doing and what its supposed to accomplish.
If the thing they’re mad about is paying tax for a money losing games proposition, fine and dandy. If they’re mad about corporate giants milking the working stiff, fine and dandy. If they’re mad about money being wsated on games that should be wasted on something else, fine and dandy. If they’re pissed at the enhanced security and cameras, fine and dandy. There’s lots to be mad about, but it should be pretty easy to articulate it if we’re going to protest about it.
Once you know what you’re amd about I think you have to ask the question: are you going to do something about it or just bitch? Is bitching actually doing something about it? If it raises awareness or makes someone take action, clearly it is. But if all it does is give someone a chance to bitch, its just annoying to the people whyo have to listen.
(Don’t assume I’m pro-Olympics just because I think protesters should know what they’re protesting and be able to accomplish something. My criticism applies to all protests equally).
Rob says, “I do expect someone who says they have a position on something to be able to articulate it without resorting to the old “assumption” tactic to deflect the question (as in “Oh, I guess you don’t believe in X or you think everyone should do Y”) – just answer the question: what are you mad about and what do you want changed? I also expect people who say they’re committed to doing something about a particualr issue to be able to articulate what it is they’re doing and what its supposed to accomplish.” — This discussion is starting to sound like your thoughts on AGW proponents
I agree with being able to articulate your position. Too often when I see protesters interviewed they can only articulate a vague seething anger at the status quo. That discredits them and their cause in my mind.
So, with respect to the cost of the Olympics. I ask, why should I care? Are we talking a million bucks or a billion bucks? How much of a burden will the average tax paying family have to shoulder? It’s not clear to me how much this baby is going to end up costing, despite the fact that I’ve heard lots of discussion that it’s overbudget and the original projections were too optimistic.
I think this is important to have clarity on because I tend to see the same level of outrage regardless of the sum involved. $5K for a day of golf for public servants at a ‘team building’ conference vs. $18 billion to fight a war in Afghanistan. So pretty hard to judge the validity or importance of the claim based on the level of outrage, we need some cold, hard numbers and a clear idea of how that money could have been better spent.
Many Franks:
Im kind of echoing rob here, but just being pissed off and not having an alternative doesnt seem like a good reason to protest to me.
Say half the city protests. It messes up everything from the events to people trying to get to work to ambulances trying to help people. Now this does ruin the events, which seems to be the intent, but it also harms people who could be just as opposed to the olympics as the protestors.
After all this the governments have learned “people were pissed off”. Normally when people piss other people off they make a note to not do that again if they can help it. In the particular situation of the olympics it wont happen again regardless.
Thats my problem with it; pissed off people piss off more people and nothing gets done about anything. Not the most productive way to spend 17 days and billions of dollars.
Lol – yes, it is only protests that disrupt people from “getting to work” or “ambulances getting to people”
Be sure to tell those 2500 cancelled surgeries how good the games were, or local businesses affected by closures, or those municipal workers forced to “volunteer” and take unpaid training, or that gridlocked worker trying to get to his job that protests, not the games, are disruptive…
In addition to the “Ask Me, I am Local 2010″ program for foreign visitors, they really should have a “Smile, Its the Olympics” patrol to cheer up all those local patients and delayed workers…
Oh well, in a few weeks it will all be over….
“Oh well, in a few weeks it will all be over….”
And then the bills start rolling in…
Spaceman:
Rent equivalent at the lowest interest rates in history? Or using a reasonable average over the past 20-30 years? ‘Nuff said.
6
Man its like talking to a wall. I’ve pretty much said all I can so this might be the last post I make on this.
All of the negative things that the olympics have caused are bad. We are all upset about them. I have said a dozen times I didnt think we should have had the olympics in the first place. All of that has already happened or is going to happen soon. You cant change the past. And (as I have said) it wont happen again.
However, do these protests do anything to help “2500 cancelled surgeries … or local businesses affected by closures”? In my opionion, no. (well the poster store might get some business from it)
This event is a one time thing. They screwed it up. I agree.
Option 1: Try and screw it up further.
Option 2: Do nothing.
Option 2: Try and enjoy it.
Seems like a no brainer to me.
Agree entirely, davers.
I’ll probably join the protest. There is not a lot that an average citizen can do, but at least i can say I did what I could. I’ll have a camera on-hand and will use it against anyone who deserves it, be they police or protesters. More likely police, I bet.
“There is not a lot that an average citizen can do, but at least i can say I did what I could”
What exactly are you trying to acheive?
Making the world aware that hosting the Winter Olympics is a huge financial burden that a small city like Vancouver should not take on. Its too late for us, but I figure its the right thing to warn others about the IOC.
PO (12) How the hell did Lillihamer afford it (pop 25K)?
The games are only expensive if the host makes them expensive. There is no binding agreement that says “you must spend X dollars”. Each olympics will have a different budget and be run by different people. Just because ours looks like it will be a f**k up doesnt mean every other one from now on will be.
I am sure each potential host would look at the budgeting of past games regardless of protests.
ceejay – I don’t know, but would guess the Norwegian government paid for it. And that was 15 years ago.
davers – people can listen to me or not. But I am enraged and will happily use the freedom of speech that both my grandfathers and all my great uncles fought so hard for. IOC and our local politicians will be brought to justice, if I have any say in it (and I probably don’t).
You know, having thought about it carefully, there is no need to address this topic with a lengthy, forensic disquisition… it boils down to this. Simply substitute the words ’slave rebellion’ for ‘Olympic Protest’ and you have the essence of the phenomenon.
HP has no objection to ’sporting festivals’ but the Olympics as practiced in YVR are, alas, neither ’sporting’, nor authentically festive… Hence the ‘resistance’.
What’s done is done, so – indeed – enjoy it while you may… But come the day, it would be better by far to punish the ’slave masters’ than the revellers…
PS – please forgive the tautology..
Afterthought… of course, in a collective sense, we’ve been ‘here’ before….
“It was natural and perhaps human that the privileged princes of these new economic dynasties, thirsting for power, reached out for control over Government itself. They created a new despotism and wrapped it in the robes of legal sanction. In its service new mercenaries sought to regiment the people, their labor, and their property. And as a result the average man once more confronts the problem that faced the Minute Man.
The hours men and women worked, the wages they received, the conditions of their labor-these had passed beyond the control of the people, and were imposed by this new industrial dictatorship. The savings of the average family, the capital of the small business man, the investments set aside for old age-other people’s money-these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.
Those who tilled the soil no longer reaped the rewards which were their right. The small measure of their gains was decreed by men in distant cities.
Throughout the Nation, opportunity was limited by monopoly. Individual initiative was crushed in the cogs of a great machine. The field open for free business was more and more restricted. Private enterprise, indeed, became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise.
An old English judge once said: “Necessitous men are not free men.” Liberty requires opportunity to make a living-a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.
For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people’s property, other people’s money, other people’s labor-other people’s lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.
Franklin D. Roosevelt Speeches
Democratic National Convention (June 27, 1936)
Well, there it is… and what follows is an eclectic sampling of today’s best from the past 24hrs of the ‘cycle’… I didn’t go ‘looking’ for this stuff, you can hardly avoid tripping over it… so, without further ‘ado’…
[CBC] B.C. film and game firms get tax gift
http://tinyurl.com/yb5bm4j
[CanaPress] VANOC not bound to disclose payment for CEO
http://tinyurl.com/yafkxz9
[CTV/Globe] Great Olympians left out in the cold
http://tinyurl.com/yc6vvcc
[EconView] Inequality and ‘Guard Labour’
http://tinyurl.com/ybtoj2j
[Economist] Unaffordable art
http://tinyurl.com/yebrp6l
[ZeroHedge] Lunch With Robert Reich
http://tinyurl.com/yar7teh
[NassimTaleb/ZH] Taleb: “Every Single Human Being” Should Be Short U.S. Treasuries
http://tinyurl.com/ybqzbgm
[TruthOut] The Hidden Cost of Liberal Education at Immoderate Prices
http://tinyurl.com/ycxf76x
[Feeding America] Hunger Report 2010
http://tinyurl.com/yedkm92
[Politico] GOP cash provides 2012 clues
http://tinyurl.com/y9m4vcq
[MotherJones] Lawyers, Guns, and Money
http://tinyurl.com/yce3524
[UK Guardian] The lessons of Iraq have been ignored. The target is now Iran
http://tinyurl.com/yz8mq7n
Ah yes, SenorCaballero – as regards the MapleSyrupRepublic’s very own El Presidente Por Vidas… I am minded to think – yes, him again – of one of my favourite Frankinlisms…
“[Somoza] may be a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch.”
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Machiavelli himself could learn a thing or two from ElHarpo’s playbook.
[G&M] Harper sets a trap for the opposition
http://tinyurl.com/yz8mq7n
It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.
Niccolo Machiavelli
PO 15
Protest away I suppose, but please dont do it with the intention of screwing up the event. That just doesnt help anything.
davers – do you really think that myself or any peaceful protester has the ability to sink the Owelympics? LOL If only I had such power
Any peaceful protestor couldnt ruin them entirely, but it is already going to be a big enough mess without protestors intentionally blocking roads and doing anything they can to make the event less fun for everyone else.
Make yourself heard, but try not to screw the whole thing up further.
What mode of protest had you planned?
can i protest at house prices in vancouver ?
http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Anti+Olympic+activists+plan+massive+disruption+opening+Vancouver+Olympics/2528970/story.html
OTTAWA — A call has gone out for anti-Olympic activists from across the continent to clog the streets of Vancouver and disrupt the first full day of the Winter Games.
Details of the planned Feb. 13 street march, called “2010 Heart Attack: clog the arteries of Capitalism,” appeared Friday on InfoShop News, a U.S.-based anarchist web site and Vancouver’s Olympic Resistance Network site.
“Several anti-capitalist, anti-colonial groups and individuals are organizing a demonstration respecting the diversity of tactics,” it announced.
“We expect your group to have a collective position on how confrontational you want to be during the demonstration. We also expect that discussion or proposal of illegal acts remains between comrades and affinity groups in order to keep everyone safe.”
IDIOTS